Wednesday, August 09, 2006

Y'shua on the Bronze Snake

Numbers 21:4-9
4 They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the desert? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!"

6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people.

8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

John 3:13-18
13No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

16"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

7 Comments:

Anonymous Moshe ben Avraham said...

I am just curious, given I am one of the "condemned". Is official, jews for Jesus, doctrine; all people who do not believe in Jesus go to hell?I am curious, as well, as how you perceive hell. Or is it some other malicious punishement? In edition, what of the helpless that are incapable of making religious descions.

8/09/2006 05:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Moshe ben Avraham said...

Am I to take that Jesus was the snake? If so I guess Jesus has another physical form. That means G-d has four entities; which makes jews for Jesus quadrintarian. Lets leave it at polytheistic.

8/09/2006 05:12:00 PM  
Blogger geoffrobinson said...

Moshe,

Scripture is silent on people that are incapable. The Lord is their judge and will judge them in righteousness and mercy. In other words, it doesn't concern us.

But you are capable. You have two options. Your sins on your own head or your sins on Y'shua as described in Isaiah. Those are the two options. The text I cited reads that we are "condemned already."

In regards to the snake, Y'shua is making a comparison. In theology, this is known as typology. If you read a summary of the different meanings in Scripture (a good introductory description of the Kaballah usually mentions this) typology or analogy is often mentioned.

The snake was a type that pointed to a greater, future reality. The Passover Lamb is a type. The sacrificial system points to a greater reality too. These types speak to how God views sin and what His remedy is.

8/10/2006 09:48:00 AM  
Anonymous Moshe ben Avraham said...

I am aware of Torah as an analogy. I do not take it literally always. Speaking of anaolgies. The angel of G-d is an anaolgy, not G-d himself.

I have heard different from Jews for jesus. They make it clear Jews are going to hell. You seem determined to skirt the issue. I find jews for jesus stand on the incapable appaling. HaShem has nothing but mercy for those. Sorry kid, you may have down's syndrome, but you still may not make it to heaven. One other reason I despise the organization.

8/10/2006 12:45:00 PM  
Blogger geoffrobinson said...

Both Jews and Gentiles can escape the wrath of God by trusting on the Messiah. I know several Jews and Gentile of whom this is the case. And I know several Jews and Gentiles of whom this is not the case, as of present.

I'm not sure what Jews for Jesus's official stand for those who are incapable is. I've told you my position: it is not addressed in Scripture. The issue is in God's capable hands. I know He is righteous. And I know He is merciful. So I do not concern myself with what He has not seen fit to reveal in His Word. And if I should concern myself with the issue, He would have revealed the issue in His Word.

But you are capable and have no excuse.

How exactly is the Angel of the LORD an analogy? Did an analogy appear to Moses in the burning bush?

Also typology requires the underlying type to be real.

8/10/2006 11:01:00 PM  
Anonymous Moshe ben Avraham said...

Good. I am glad to see you are reverting back to your routine of trying to convert me. I was getting worried there for a while. I need no excuse because I have no intention of commiting idoltary or disgracing what Judaism stands for. So I am capabale of never disgracing HaShem's name and knowing what the true G-d is.

As for the analogies. It is much like when Torah says then G-d made man in his image. His is an analogy for angels, not to be literally interpretated as another G-d that is the same. Torah is full of metaphors and ananlogies. What do you think rabbi's spend thier time doing? They have to try and sift analogies from real events.

8/11/2006 12:40:00 PM  
Blogger geoffrobinson said...

Well, I would disagree that the naming of the Angel of the LORD as HaShem is an analogy. An analogy is something is like something else.

The text of the Torah doesn't treat the naming of the Angel of the LORD as an analogy. There doesn't seem to be a basis for that conclusion, except that you don't care for the implications of the angel of the LORD being named HaShem.

And the Talmud doesn't make that argument for the angel of LORD either.

Now an example of an analogy in the Torah would be the description of Moses as "God to Pharoah." I can't think of the reference off the top of my head, but I would assume it would be somewhere between Exodus 3 and chapter 14.

8/11/2006 09:34:00 PM  

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